Surprisingly, I think that even though Nettles and Born Yesterday are written by two different people I think they are more similar than different. By this I mean that both poems are quite sad and negatively written and so both see the negatives on 'life' Also, they both try and make something so sad seem beautiful, in Born Yesterday trying to make not being perfect a beautiful thing and in Nettles making stinging nettles seem somewhat beautiful.
Even though both poems are written about completely different topics and there subjects are also very different, they both have similar writing structures and descriptions and I think that this is because they are both written about negative topics.
I agree with Orlagh that 'Nettles' and 'Born Yesterday' are quite similar poems, this is because they both seem to be caring ('we soothed him' and 'I have wished you something') but then they become sadder towards the end. Both poems are written about children and the inevitable happening to them, for example in 'Nettles' the last line is 'my son would often feel sharp wounds again', before this line Scannell spoke about killing all the nettles until there weren't any left even though he knew they would simply grow again and hurt his son. In 'Born Yesterday' Larkin seemed to say that Sally would end up being boring and dull; all the inevitable things that both poets said would happen actually did. I researched Vernon Scannell and he was in various wars, therefore this would explain why he used terms such as 'regiment' and 'recruits' to describe the nettles. He was put in prison (I think twice) for deserting the army and had some serious injuries; which would suggest that he had experienced some awful things which probably affected him negatively. So both poets were most likely to have been a bit disturbed and so these poems reflected their emotions, giving them similar themes.
Overall both poets life experiences have affected the mood of their poems, making them sad and negative. Also they describe very different subjects (nettles and new born baby) with similar emotions, giving their poems deep and personal meanings.
I think the poems are rather different but are also quite similar, in the way the present their feelings on hopes and wishes. They both direct their poems to a child, and they write down what they hope for the child to have in the future. Scannell's poem is more in the eyes of a loving protective parent, who hopes the best as they see their child grow while Larkin's poem is for a friend's child. The themes of the poems are quite different as well, however that is affected by the lifestyles of the poets'. Personally, I think these poems are also linked because whilst Larkin says to embrace having the ordinary life that most people experience, Scannell has his child going off to fight for his country which is a life that isn't ordinary but a powerful choice that can lead to life and death experiences. Julie
I actually disagree with the opinion that 'Nettles' and 'Born Yesterday' are written about completely different things. Sure, at first glance, there seems to be hardly anything to compare between the two, but then again, it's POETRY. And that simple fact changes a lot: If you look at 'Nettles' in a non-literal point of view, you notice that it actually gives the nettles almost human characteristics - not only by being called a 'regiment' or a 'parade', but by giving them that persistency and ire so typical of humans. So, yes, I am basically saying that Vernon Scannell is referring to humans when he describes the nettles.
Especially around the middle of the poem: it talks about how Scannel 'slashed in fury' until none of the nettles remained standing, yet a few weeks later, they were back. Also, by ending with "My son would often feel sharp wounds again" it shows that Scannell is aware that the boy would inevitably fall into the nettles again.
Once again, looking at it from a non-literal perspective, I think that the message of the poem is that of parents trying to protect their children from the ugliness and unfairness of the world, even though it is a hopeless battles as even if they succeed once, they can't save their children from everything. Which is what I think the last line insinuates to. Parents know that they can only watch and provide comfort for their children - "We soothed him till his pain was not so raw" - while they go through the pain the world can dish out for them.
Therefore, linking it back to Born Yesterday, I would actually say that the poems are written about pretty much the same thing: Larkin, for all his bitterness and misogyny, actually wished Sally to be dull, so she would not stick out from the majority, and therefore wouldn't be hurt when others picked on her for her differences. In a way, he actually wanted to protect her. And, in my opinion, Scannell is talking about protection too.
So, both poems are about children. Both written from an adult's perspective. Both written by people who weren't all that liked by life and experienced some fairly disturbing or scarring events. Both of whom allow their personality traits/personal views (misogyny and dislike of war) to seep into their writing.
Overall, I'd say that the poems are actually quite comparable. Though, once again, that's just my opinion ;)
The poems are about completely different subjects yet the style and the context from which they’re written is very similar. For example, both poems are written to a different shape but the voice of the author seems to be harsh and angry in both poems. After reading Rachel’s response and discovering how war affected Vernon Scannell, I see now how this could be portrayed in his use of language- for example regiment and recruits. I think the message carried across in ‘Nettles’ is that war is useless as it resolves nothing; just as the cutting away the stinging nettles in the poem had no effect as more grew in their place. However, the message I interpreted from ‘Born Yesterday’ is that life is unfair and no matter how hard you try nothing will ever go as you planned. I found this to be shown from Larkin’s bitterness and sarcasm throughout the poem, and his sexism could’ve been directed at Sally Amis, or he may have been jealous due to his previous failures at relationships. Another factor which is similar is the fact that both poems mention a child. In ‘Nettles’ the author talks about his son whereas Larkin mentions ‘for Sally Amis’. I sense that Scannell loved his son as he mentions soothing and seeking comfort. From ‘Born Yesterday’ I feel that Phillip Larkin did not care for Sally at all as he wishes her to be dull rather than special giving the piece a more negative approach. ~Rhianna
If i am completely honest i think that the poems are different because one i though was very sarcastic and rude whereas 'Nettles' was about a completely different situation, it wasn't angry or sarcastic in fact it was quite loving and as a father should be when his child is in pain. Although 'Born Yesterday' is also written for a child, it is not his own but a friend's therefore creating a difference between the poems. That and the fact that 'Born Yesterday' is quite down putting my opinion and not positive whatsoever nor is being stung by nettles but it depends on how you look at things. Similarly both poems include about hopes and dreams for the child, both different but hopes none the less. Whether it being to live your life dull or sign up for the army.
The two poems I think are completely different in the subject they talk about. Nettles is using the metaphor 'nettle' to signify something more and I think it could refer to something like war. However, because to understand it fully you have to look deeply into it, it is also similar to Born Yesterday as you can't really tell the full story just by looking at it. It's only until you search into it that you realise things you didn't before (as we found out). They are both also similar in the way that they both talk about a child and their view on someone else's situation, maybe based on their own experience too. The two poems have different structure though and are set out differently on the page. Whether this has meaning I'm not particularly sure, but both poems flow from one line into the next, continuing on phrases and completing points. I think that overall the poems both share the way they portray their feelings and emotions through the poem. Larkin in Born Yesterday is showing his thoughts and sharing them with Sally Amis in particular, but Scannell in Nettle is also doing the same. Although this is similar, the tenses are different, as Nettles is simply reflecting on something that happened in the past, whereas Born Yesterday is written for future purpose. Both writers include themselves in the writing of the poetry, as if they have a part in the matter (by using 'I'). Both writers also talk about sadness within their poem. This isn't at obvious when looking at Born Yesterday but the sarcastic tone is then brought out and makes you think twice about the meaning in the poem. I think that the poems bring out a sense of hope or hopelessness in the words that they speak, as if they are either hoping for the best or doubting/ regretting something/someone. Overall, both poems are similar but also quite different at the same time. They almost match up but at the same time are like opposites.
I get a strong vibe that these poems are about revenge, not in fact love or caring adults with best wishes. However more like adults behind a wall that are trying to appear as if they're nice but really it's all just a way to get their point across. Now even though that could sound a bit vague, bare with me. In Nettles, the parental figure helps their child after suffering the nettle bed, making sure he is okay once the watery grin is drawn across his face. The parent then has no mercy for the nettles and gives them the harm they gave their son, but also taking it a step further by burning them. To me this was a strong signal of him expressing his anger the nettles gave. However, the nettles cannot help what they do, it is simply in their nature to hurt if people are not careful, so the parent is harming the nettles for a reason it cannot help. This then reflects the jealousy from 'Born Yesterday' because while Sally Amis was alive, Philip had to watch her grow up to be a young beautiful woman that could get any man and go live her life partying every night with no one stopping her. This leads me to believe this 'spiteful' poem was revenge, almost making a mockery of her so he could feel better himself. He never had the luck she had with opposite genders and he also had a hatred for women so writing this way about her after her death is a cruel way of him basically unleashing all the sarcastic remarks and jealous thoughts. Once again though, Sally could not help who she was because she had an unstable home that was hard for her to grow up and develop relationships or happiness like others. Just as the nettles could not help who they were. In conclusion, I believe these two poems have a strong vibe of jealously and revenge that are hidden by caring words such as 'at last he offered us a watery grin' or 'tightly-folded bud'. Hope you catch my drift -Nadia
i think that the poems are quite similar, as in born yesterday, Philip Larkin (in my opinion) is expressing how he doesnt like the baby, as it is a girl, and has a whole life ahead of her to look forward to, that he is being sarcastic and rude. i think that nettles is similar to born yesteday, as on the outside, both poets are being nice, like Larkin wishes the baby a 'catching of happiness', and Scannell 'soothes' his sons raw nettle rash. however, i believe that both poets are expressing their hatred in the poems, Larkin being sacrastic, and Scannell, 'slashing in fury'. i also looked him up, and he was put in prison and was in the war, and was prisoned because he ran away from the war. i think that he was lashing out at the army for doing that to him, while using army terms in the poem, and that the army is horrible, and it hurts you, like the nettles hurt his son. the nettles always grow back, like the army came to track him down after running away. so overall, i think they are very similar, as both poems seem nice and genlte on the surface, but then hide what is really meant and hurful undernath. Jess
To start with, I thought that the poems were completely different, especially if I am thinking in the way I did before I caught on with the sarcasm in Born Yesterday, because I thought he was being genuinely nice. It's hard to compare them because they are very differently themed, for example, Born Yesterday is about a baby girl who he is making wishes for, whereas I'll admit the first time I listened to it I thought it was just about a boy who fell in a bed of nettles. However, when I read it again I got the image of war, because the boy is angry at what has happened to him and slashes all of the nettles down until not one was left standing. I also thought of war when I read the phrase: 'A funeral pyre to burn the fallen dead', because it is to do with burying something, and even though it doesn't tell you what I t actually is, it could be nettles or it could be a hidden meaning of death amongst people, I still get a depressing feeling. That's where I find a opening to compare the poems, because they are both reasonably depressing.
I think that the poem with stronger wishes and hopes for the future is Nettles, because in that poem I can sense actual love instead of sarcasm, like when he says 'came seeking for comfort', which is often a sign of love. However, at the beginning of the very same sentence, he mentions his child as 'The boy' which to me seems very distant and not very caring at all - another similarity.
I agree with Rhianna when she said 'the message I interpreted from ‘Born Yesterday’ is that life is unfair and no matter how hard you try nothing will ever go as you planned'. This is because of the vocabulary that is used by Larkin. For example, he uses words like ' unworkable, dull, nemphasised', etc.
In conclusion, the poems are have a lot more in common than many, and I can only really start to see that the more I read each poem.
When I first read both poems, I was kind of confused by both the first time round because in Born Yesterday, Philip Larkin seems to be wishing Sally Amis something good when really it's something bitter and sarcastic and Nettles just seemed a bit odd... But then I re-read both and understood that in Born Yesterdya, Philip Larkin was being a little sarcastic and bitter but that was based on his past with women and then in Nettles, Scannell was using the nettles as a metaphorical way of explaining what life is about, or so I thought. To be honest, I saw little to no resemblance in the two poems, except for the fact that they both seem to be quite bitter and the first impression is very different from the second. The one thing that I did see very differently on second thought was the fact that I actually liked Nettles but I din't like Born Yesterday. I think that Nettles had a different meaning to it than just chopping down a load of nettles that seem to pop up in the garden every now and again, causing havoc, I thought it had a different meaning about life. I can't quite gather what it is but I like the different feel of the poem, the almost magic of it, and there wasn't that in Born Yesterday which was just misogynistic and bitter, to be honest. I think the two poems can't really be compared because, to me, they have very different meanings though not everybody seems to think so.
As said before, on the first reading of Born Yesterday, I had a completely different POV which was then altered on the second reading and discussion. And this is actually exactly the same as what happened to my POV about Nettles. First, I thought that the poet was being a loving and caring parent by trying to soothe his son after being wounded by 'nettles' but then thought that may the poem had an essence of war to it. Now, when I have to compare them, I feel like I am in the 'pit' because I don't know where to start. they are both so different...NOT! I understand that even though they look as if they are poles apart, they are still actually quite similar in the style used and the words two-Negative. they both have the same affect on me-Depressed on a grey aspect of life. I think that both poems are similar, in the sense that they explain life-i.e. The inevitable will always happen. They both are also linking to the children through a wording of protection and are trying to offer advice to help the children live a 'happy' life. The reason I think that they both wish for each individual child to live a life in happiness is due to their own personal life experiences and personality traits-e.g. misogyny & relationships /war prisoner etc. this is why, I think that both are using negative words and emotions to put across their own viewpoint about life and advice to live a better one. this way, their personal life comes into reflection through their poetry. The other thing that I think they both outline clearly is the need and responsibility of protection in life-Larkin wishes that Sally be dull so as to not stand out and Scannell is slashing the nettles that lie in his sons path. The one similar but strange thing is that, for me, both poems highlight hopes and advice for the child but in an ambiguous manner. There are gentle and sweet and loving words but with deep, dark and almost sarcastic/painful, hidden meanings so you can't be sure if the poem is from the caring love towards the child or from the cruel jealousy that the poet harbours for life and it's experiences.
Personally, when I first read 'Nettles', I felt as if it wasn't very similar to 'Born Yesterday'. This is because when I originally read, 'Nettles', unlike some of the others, I found that the poem came across as quite angry, whereas when I initially read 'Born Yesterday' the poem seemed caring and innocent.
However, when I read them both through again and looked at the discussion, I realised that both of the poems shared a similar style and context, even though the subjects the poems were based on, were very different. This is because, within 'Nettles' the poet is angry about war and conflict and has a hatred of this. Similarly, 'Born Yesterday' was written by a man who had a hatred of women and therefore both poems expressed anger on the topics they disliked. Because of this, I do feel that the poems were quite similar, particularly because of the meaning behind each of them. -Florence
I think that born yesterday and nettles are very different. Since we've looked at them both a little in class, I think born yesterday is rather bitter were as nettles seemed to be about getting rid of a problem, because of love the author felt for their son. However with so many references to war with words such as regiment etc. I thought that maybe it was actually talking about a war, but I'm not sure I think I 'll probably understand it more if I had background information on the author as that's what made be realize the sarcastic and bitter edge to Philip Larkin's born yesterday.
A common emotion the poems both have is negativity as born yesterday is bitter and sarcastic and, though nettles has a nice edge as the author appears to love their son, nettles is rather negative too as lot of groups realized when we did the word grouping activity in class quite a few groups put them into emotions and they were mainly negative and sad.
At a first glance I thought 'Nettles' was an angry or harsh poem, or atleast written in that way. However when we looked deeply into the poem we all found that it was quite different. Infact it was meant to be written out of love, and affection, probably towards a child. 'Born Yesterday' is quite similar in that fact, as it comes across as something, caring, but in fact it is really quite a harsh poem. So in that instance, 'Born Yesterday' and 'Nettles' are quite similar because they have almost hidden meanings, but different because they have completely opposite meanings. Georgie
Both of them are kind of, like, about children and OMG i just noticed both poets were born in the same year. Anyway. They're different. but they're both kind of saying that if you put down all the obsticles and wish for everything the best, it probs wont happen. I don't really know what to say. To be honest. I'll stop here.
After reading all the other comments,I agree that 'Nettles' and 'Born Yesterday' are quite similar in terms of negativity but I also think they are different in terms of subject and the structure. You can see that both poems are about children but 'Born Yesterday' has a change of tone which is significant as it starts off being positive by talking about 'innocence' and 'love' but as it went on the reader could see the bitterness towards this child. On the other hand, I thought 'Nettles' reflected anger throughout the whole poem because it mentioned the falling in 'nettle bed' in the first line which could symbolise instant physical pain. From what Rachel said about his connection with wars, I think that was the main influence when Scanell wrote this poem because it mentions a lot of war related things such as 'regiment','parade','fallen dead' and 'recruits'. In 'Born Yesterday' there is certainly a lot of spite towards the end but that was probably because of his thoughts about women as he didn't seem to like them very much. Another similar thing about both is they way they are written from an adults point of view so you could say they were just being protective of the child they wrote about or they were being aggressive (Scannell) or bitter (Larkin). So overall, I think both their lifestyles and personal experiences would of hugely impacted their style of writing because as well as being similar they are different in their own way.
'Nettles' and 'Born Yesterday' are quite similar poems, showing love and concern for the child. this is shown through the soft, caring phrases such as 'we soothed him' and 'I have wished you something' but they gradually get more solemn , showing how as the child grows, so do their concerns.I think that the message of the poem is that of parents trying to protect their children from the ugliness and unfairness of the world, even though it is a hopeless battles as even if they succeed once, they can't save their children from everything. In "Nettles" the plants will grow back again and pose a danger- and as much as Larkin wants his friends daughter to blend in and be protected, he cannot. The speaker questions the use of the word 'bed' in 'the nettle bed'. He considers it to be 'a curious name for those green spears'. This is because the term 'bed' suggests safety, comfort and as the speaker says a 'a place of rest', all the things that the 'nettle bed are not'- we could assume that the netteles are a metaphor for people- that there will always be people that may harm the growing child in the future, and you cant protect them forever.and in "born yesterday" the writer is concerned for this child as he makes the outer world seem inherently cruel and that the only way the child can be protected in the future is by blending in, and being so ordinary that no one notices or wants to change her.
Surprisingly, I think that even though Nettles and Born Yesterday are written by two different people I think they are more similar than different. By this I mean that both poems are quite sad and negatively written and so both see the negatives on 'life' Also, they both try and make something so sad seem beautiful, in Born Yesterday trying to make not being perfect a beautiful thing and in Nettles making stinging nettles seem somewhat beautiful.
ReplyDeleteEven though both poems are written about completely different topics and there subjects are also very different, they both have similar writing structures and descriptions and I think that this is because they are both written about negative topics.
Orlagh
I agree with Orlagh that 'Nettles' and 'Born Yesterday' are quite similar poems, this is because they both seem to be caring ('we soothed him' and 'I have wished you something') but then they become sadder towards the end. Both poems are written about children and the inevitable happening to them, for example in 'Nettles' the last line is 'my son would often feel sharp wounds again', before this line Scannell spoke about killing all the nettles until there weren't any left even though he knew they would simply grow again and hurt his son. In 'Born Yesterday' Larkin seemed to say that Sally would end up being boring and dull; all the inevitable things that both poets said would happen actually did. I researched Vernon Scannell and he was in various wars, therefore this would explain why he used terms such as 'regiment' and 'recruits' to describe the nettles. He was put in prison (I think twice) for deserting the army and had some serious injuries; which would suggest that he had experienced some awful things which probably affected him negatively. So both poets were most likely to have been a bit disturbed and so these poems reflected their emotions, giving them similar themes.
ReplyDeleteOverall both poets life experiences have affected the mood of their poems, making them sad and negative. Also they describe very different subjects (nettles and new born baby) with similar emotions, giving their poems deep and personal meanings.
Rachel
I think the poems are rather different but are also quite similar, in the way the present their feelings on hopes and wishes. They both direct their poems to a child, and they write down what they hope for the child to have in the future. Scannell's poem is more in the eyes of a loving protective parent, who hopes the best as they see their child grow while Larkin's poem is for a friend's child. The themes of the poems are quite different as well, however that is affected by the lifestyles of the poets'. Personally, I think these poems are also linked because whilst Larkin says to embrace having the ordinary life that most people experience, Scannell has his child going off to fight for his country which is a life that isn't ordinary but a powerful choice that can lead to life and death experiences.
ReplyDeleteJulie
I actually disagree with the opinion that 'Nettles' and 'Born Yesterday' are written about completely different things. Sure, at first glance, there seems to be hardly anything to compare between the two, but then again, it's POETRY. And that simple fact changes a lot:
ReplyDeleteIf you look at 'Nettles' in a non-literal point of view, you notice that it actually gives the nettles almost human characteristics - not only by being called a 'regiment' or a 'parade', but by giving them that persistency and ire so typical of humans.
So, yes, I am basically saying that Vernon Scannell is referring to humans when he describes the nettles.
Especially around the middle of the poem: it talks about how Scannel 'slashed in fury' until none of the nettles remained standing, yet a few weeks later, they were back. Also, by ending with "My son would often feel sharp wounds again" it shows that Scannell is aware that the boy would inevitably fall into the nettles again.
Once again, looking at it from a non-literal perspective, I think that the message of the poem is that of parents trying to protect their children from the ugliness and unfairness of the world, even though it is a hopeless battles as even if they succeed once, they can't save their children from everything. Which is what I think the last line insinuates to. Parents know that they can only watch and provide comfort for their children - "We soothed him till his pain was not so raw" - while they go through the pain the world can dish out for them.
Therefore, linking it back to Born Yesterday, I would actually say that the poems are written about pretty much the same thing: Larkin, for all his bitterness and misogyny, actually wished Sally to be dull, so she would not stick out from the majority, and therefore wouldn't be hurt when others picked on her for her differences. In a way, he actually wanted to protect her. And, in my opinion, Scannell is talking about protection too.
So, both poems are about children. Both written from an adult's perspective. Both written by people who weren't all that liked by life and experienced some fairly disturbing or scarring events. Both of whom allow their personality traits/personal views (misogyny and dislike of war) to seep into their writing.
Overall, I'd say that the poems are actually quite comparable. Though, once again, that's just my opinion ;)
-Matylda
The poems are about completely different subjects yet the style and the context from which they’re written is very similar. For example, both poems are written to a different shape but the voice of the author seems to be harsh and angry in both poems. After reading Rachel’s response and discovering how war affected Vernon Scannell, I see now how this could be portrayed in his use of language- for example regiment and recruits. I think the message carried across in ‘Nettles’ is that war is useless as it resolves nothing; just as the cutting away the stinging nettles in the poem had no effect as more grew in their place. However, the message I interpreted from ‘Born Yesterday’ is that life is unfair and no matter how hard you try nothing will ever go as you planned. I found this to be shown from Larkin’s bitterness and sarcasm throughout the poem, and his sexism could’ve been directed at Sally Amis, or he may have been jealous due to his previous failures at relationships. Another factor which is similar is the fact that both poems mention a child. In ‘Nettles’ the author talks about his son whereas Larkin mentions ‘for Sally Amis’. I sense that Scannell loved his son as he mentions soothing and seeking comfort. From ‘Born Yesterday’ I feel that Phillip Larkin did not care for Sally at all as he wishes her to be dull rather than special giving the piece a more negative approach.
ReplyDelete~Rhianna
If i am completely honest i think that the poems are different because one i though was very sarcastic and rude whereas 'Nettles' was about a completely different situation, it wasn't angry or sarcastic in fact it was quite loving and as a father should be when his child is in pain. Although 'Born Yesterday' is also written for a child, it is not his own but a friend's therefore creating a difference between the poems. That and the fact that 'Born Yesterday' is quite down putting my opinion and not positive whatsoever nor is being stung by nettles but it depends on how you look at things.
ReplyDeleteSimilarly both poems include about hopes and dreams for the child, both different but hopes none the less. Whether it being to live your life dull or sign up for the army.
-Katie
The two poems I think are completely different in the subject they talk about. Nettles is using the metaphor 'nettle' to signify something more and I think it could refer to something like war. However, because to understand it fully you have to look deeply into it, it is also similar to Born Yesterday as you can't really tell the full story just by looking at it. It's only until you search into it that you realise things you didn't before (as we found out).
ReplyDeleteThey are both also similar in the way that they both talk about a child and their view on someone else's situation, maybe based on their own experience too.
The two poems have different structure though and are set out differently on the page. Whether this has meaning I'm not particularly sure, but both poems flow from one line into the next, continuing on phrases and completing points.
I think that overall the poems both share the way they portray their feelings and emotions through the poem. Larkin in Born Yesterday is showing his thoughts and sharing them with Sally Amis in particular, but Scannell in Nettle is also doing the same.
Although this is similar, the tenses are different, as Nettles is simply reflecting on something that happened in the past, whereas Born Yesterday is written for future purpose.
Both writers include themselves in the writing of the poetry, as if they have a part in the matter (by using 'I'). Both writers also talk about sadness within their poem. This isn't at obvious when looking at Born Yesterday but the sarcastic tone is then brought out and makes you think twice about the meaning in the poem.
I think that the poems bring out a sense of hope or hopelessness in the words that they speak, as if they are either hoping for the best or doubting/ regretting something/someone.
Overall, both poems are similar but also quite different at the same time. They almost match up but at the same time are like opposites.
~Alice
I get a strong vibe that these poems are about revenge, not in fact love or
ReplyDeletecaring adults with best wishes. However more like adults behind a wall that
are trying to appear as if they're nice but really it's all just a way to
get their point across. Now even though that could sound a bit vague, bare
with me.
In Nettles, the parental figure helps their child after suffering the
nettle bed, making sure he is okay once the watery grin is drawn across his
face. The parent then has no mercy for the nettles and gives them the harm they gave their son, but also taking it a step further by burning them. To me
this was a strong signal of him expressing his anger the nettles gave. However, the nettles cannot help what they do, it is simply in their nature to hurt if people are not careful, so the parent is harming the nettles for a reason it cannot help.
This then reflects the jealousy from 'Born Yesterday' because while Sally Amis was alive, Philip had to watch her grow up to be a young beautiful woman that could get any man and go live her life partying every night with no one stopping her. This leads me to believe this 'spiteful' poem was revenge, almost making a mockery of her so he could feel better himself. He never had the luck she had with opposite genders and he also had a hatred for women so writing this way about her after her death is a cruel way of him basically unleashing all the sarcastic remarks and jealous thoughts. Once again though, Sally could
not help who she was because she had an unstable home that was hard for her to grow up and develop relationships or happiness like others. Just as the
nettles could not help who they were.
In conclusion, I believe these two poems have a strong vibe of jealously and
revenge that are hidden by caring words such as 'at last he offered us a watery
grin' or 'tightly-folded bud'. Hope you catch my drift
-Nadia
i think that the poems are quite similar, as in born yesterday, Philip Larkin (in my opinion) is expressing how he doesnt like the baby, as it is a girl, and has a whole life ahead of her to look forward to, that he is being sarcastic and rude.
ReplyDeletei think that nettles is similar to born yesteday, as on the outside, both poets are being nice, like Larkin wishes the baby a 'catching of happiness', and Scannell 'soothes' his sons raw nettle rash.
however, i believe that both poets are expressing their hatred in the poems, Larkin being sacrastic, and Scannell, 'slashing in fury'. i also looked him up, and he was put in prison and was in the war, and was prisoned because he ran away from the war. i think that he was lashing out at the army for doing that to him, while using army terms in the poem, and that the army is horrible, and it hurts you, like the nettles hurt his son. the nettles always grow back, like the army came to track him down after running away.
so overall, i think they are very similar, as both poems seem nice and genlte on the surface, but then hide what is really meant and hurful undernath.
Jess
To start with, I thought that the poems were completely different, especially if I am thinking in the way I did before I caught on with the sarcasm in Born Yesterday, because I thought he was being genuinely nice. It's hard to compare them because they are very differently themed, for example, Born Yesterday is about a baby girl who he is making wishes for, whereas I'll admit the first time I listened to it I thought it was just about a boy who fell in a bed of nettles. However, when I read it again I got the image of war, because the boy is angry at what has happened to him and slashes all of the nettles down until not one was left standing.
ReplyDeleteI also thought of war when I read the phrase: 'A funeral pyre to burn the fallen dead', because it is to do with burying something, and even though it doesn't tell you what I t actually is, it could be nettles or it could be a hidden meaning of death amongst people, I still get a depressing feeling. That's where I find a opening to compare the poems, because they are both reasonably depressing.
I think that the poem with stronger wishes and hopes for the future is Nettles, because in that poem I can sense actual love instead of sarcasm, like when he says 'came seeking for comfort', which is often a sign of love. However, at the beginning of the very same sentence, he mentions his child as 'The boy' which to me seems very distant and not very caring at all - another similarity.
I agree with Rhianna when she said 'the message I interpreted from ‘Born Yesterday’ is that life is unfair and no matter how hard you try nothing will ever go as you planned'. This is because of the vocabulary that is used by Larkin. For example, he uses words like ' unworkable, dull, nemphasised', etc.
In conclusion, the poems are have a lot more in common than many, and I can only really start to see that the more I read each poem.
-Lizzie
When I first read both poems, I was kind of confused by both the first time round because in Born Yesterday, Philip Larkin seems to be wishing Sally Amis something good when really it's something bitter and sarcastic and Nettles just seemed a bit odd... But then I re-read both and understood that in Born Yesterdya, Philip Larkin was being a little sarcastic and bitter but that was based on his past with women and then in Nettles, Scannell was using the nettles as a metaphorical way of explaining what life is about, or so I thought.
ReplyDeleteTo be honest, I saw little to no resemblance in the two poems, except for the fact that they both seem to be quite bitter and the first impression is very different from the second.
The one thing that I did see very differently on second thought was the fact that I actually liked Nettles but I din't like Born Yesterday. I think that Nettles had a different meaning to it than just chopping down a load of nettles that seem to pop up in the garden every now and again, causing havoc, I thought it had a different meaning about life. I can't quite gather what it is but I like the different feel of the poem, the almost magic of it, and there wasn't that in Born Yesterday which was just misogynistic and bitter, to be honest.
I think the two poems can't really be compared because, to me, they have very different meanings though not everybody seems to think so.
Izzy
As said before, on the first reading of Born Yesterday, I had a completely different POV which was then altered on the second reading and discussion. And this is actually exactly the same as what happened to my POV about Nettles.
ReplyDeleteFirst, I thought that the poet was being a loving and caring parent by trying to soothe his son after being wounded by 'nettles' but then thought that may the poem had an essence of war to it.
Now, when I have to compare them, I feel like I am in the 'pit' because I don't know where to start. they are both so different...NOT!
I understand that even though they look as if they are poles apart, they are still actually quite similar in the style used and the words two-Negative. they both have the same affect on me-Depressed on a grey aspect of life.
I think that both poems are similar, in the sense that they explain life-i.e. The inevitable will always happen. They both are also linking to the children through a wording of protection and are trying to offer advice to help the children live a 'happy' life. The reason I think that they both wish for each individual child to live a life in happiness is due to their own personal life experiences and personality traits-e.g. misogyny & relationships /war prisoner etc. this is why, I think that both are using negative words and emotions to put across their own viewpoint about life and advice to live a better one. this way, their personal life comes into reflection through their poetry.
The other thing that I think they both outline clearly is the need and responsibility of protection in life-Larkin wishes that Sally be dull so as to not stand out and Scannell is slashing the nettles that lie in his sons path.
The one similar but strange thing is that, for me, both poems highlight hopes and advice for the child but in an ambiguous manner. There are gentle and sweet and loving words but with deep, dark and almost sarcastic/painful, hidden meanings so you can't be sure if the poem is from the caring love towards the child or from the cruel jealousy that the poet harbours for life and it's experiences.
Oh, wait. That's mine
Delete-Baw
Personally, when I first read 'Nettles', I felt as if it wasn't very similar to 'Born Yesterday'. This is because when I originally read, 'Nettles', unlike some of the others, I found that the poem came across as quite angry, whereas when I initially read 'Born Yesterday' the poem seemed caring and innocent.
ReplyDeleteHowever, when I read them both through again and looked at the discussion, I realised that both of the poems shared a similar style and context, even though the subjects the poems were based on, were very different. This is because, within 'Nettles' the poet is angry about war and conflict and has a hatred of this. Similarly, 'Born Yesterday' was written by a man who had a hatred of women and therefore both poems expressed anger on the topics they disliked. Because of this, I do feel that the poems were quite similar, particularly because of the meaning behind each of them.
-Florence
I think that born yesterday and nettles are very different. Since we've looked at them both a little in class, I think born yesterday is rather bitter were as nettles seemed to be about getting rid of a problem, because of love the author felt for their son. However with so many references to war with words such as regiment etc. I thought that maybe it was actually talking about a war, but I'm not sure I think I 'll probably understand it more if I had background information on the author as that's what made be realize the sarcastic and bitter edge to Philip Larkin's born yesterday.
ReplyDeleteA common emotion the poems both have is negativity as born yesterday is bitter and sarcastic and, though nettles has a nice edge as the author appears to love their son, nettles is rather negative too as lot of groups realized when we did the word grouping activity in class quite a few groups put them into emotions and they were mainly negative and sad.
Niamh Cunningham
At a first glance I thought 'Nettles' was an angry or harsh poem, or atleast written in that way. However when we looked deeply into the poem we all found that it was quite different. Infact it was meant to be written out of love, and affection, probably towards a child. 'Born Yesterday' is quite similar in that fact, as it comes across as something, caring, but in fact it is really quite a harsh poem. So in that instance, 'Born Yesterday' and 'Nettles' are quite similar because they have almost hidden meanings, but different because they have completely opposite meanings.
ReplyDeleteGeorgie
Both of them are kind of, like, about children and OMG i just noticed both poets were born in the same year. Anyway. They're different. but they're both kind of saying that if you put down all the obsticles and wish for everything the best, it probs wont happen. I don't really know what to say. To be honest. I'll stop here.
ReplyDeleteOoh wait that was me, jenny
ReplyDeleteAfter reading all the other comments,I agree that 'Nettles' and 'Born Yesterday' are quite similar in terms of negativity but I also think they are different in terms of subject and the structure. You can see that both poems are about children but 'Born Yesterday' has a change of tone which is significant as it starts off being positive by talking about 'innocence' and 'love' but as it went on the reader could see the bitterness towards this child. On the other hand, I thought 'Nettles' reflected anger throughout the whole poem because it mentioned the falling in 'nettle bed' in the first line which could symbolise instant physical pain. From what Rachel said about his connection with wars, I think that was the main influence when Scanell wrote this poem because it mentions a lot of war related things such as 'regiment','parade','fallen dead' and 'recruits'. In 'Born Yesterday' there is certainly a lot of spite towards the end but that was probably because of his thoughts about women as he didn't seem to like them very much. Another similar thing about both is they way they are written from an adults point of view so you could say they were just being protective of the child they wrote about or they were being aggressive (Scannell) or bitter (Larkin). So overall, I think both their lifestyles and personal experiences would of hugely impacted their style of writing because as well as being similar they are different in their own way.
ReplyDelete-Rubika
what the bic lamo
ReplyDeleteI just came to this page cuz my hoemwork was to compare the two poems
ReplyDelete'Nettles' and 'Born Yesterday' are quite similar poems, showing love and concern for the child. this is shown through the soft, caring phrases such as 'we soothed him' and 'I have wished you something' but they gradually get more solemn , showing how as the child grows, so do their concerns.I think that the message of the poem is that of parents trying to protect their children from the ugliness and unfairness of the world, even though it is a hopeless battles as even if they succeed once, they can't save their children from everything. In "Nettles" the plants will grow back again and pose a danger- and as much as Larkin wants his friends daughter to blend in and be protected, he cannot.
ReplyDeleteThe speaker questions the use of the word 'bed' in 'the nettle bed'. He considers it to be 'a curious name for those green spears'. This is because the term 'bed' suggests safety, comfort and as the speaker says a 'a place of rest', all the things that the 'nettle bed are not'- we could assume that the netteles are a metaphor for people- that there will always be people that may harm the growing child in the future, and you cant protect them forever.and in "born yesterday" the writer is concerned for this child as he makes the outer world seem inherently cruel and that the only way the child can be protected in the future is by blending in, and being so ordinary that no one notices or wants to change her.